Talk:Naturopathy

"Recommend against"

The above conversation has digressed, so starting a new section about one specific statement: Naturopathic practitioners commonly recommend against following modern medical practices, including but not limited to medical testing, drugs, vaccinations, and surgery.

There are four sources currently supporting that statement. Three of them are studies of students, not naturopaths, and one of them says the opposite: Most chiropractic and naturopathic students are not averse to vaccination. The Skeptical Inquirer source doesn't seem to support the statement at all. None of them mention recommending against surgery or medical testing that I can see.

That's a pretty bold statement painting with a very broad brush, so unless the sources support it, this sentence should be removed, in my opinion. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 16:50, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I can see some arguments either way about sourcing this to studies of naturopathy students, although to the extent that those sources are about what naturopaths are taught, what training they have when they go into practice, they may be legitimate. However, the SI source ([1]) is chock-full of examples of naturopaths rejecting modern medical practices. So I don't read it the way that you do. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:58, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Are we reading the same SI article? I just read the whole thing again and I still don't see anything like that. Practicing alternative therapies and promoting them is one thing. It's a very different thing to recommend against getting surgery or a vaccine. That implies a level of malice would require some good sources. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 17:36, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

"Being a naturopathic physician, I believe in the body’s ability to heal itself. The body can do this very effectively when it is kept healthy. By taking extra good care of yourself and possibly working with a natural health practitioner, you can stay resistant to colds and the flu every winter. Remember, there are many routes to immunity besides obtaining a flu shot." One can quibble that this isn't a formal recommendation not to get a flu shot, but it's clearly recommending against getting one. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Even if you accept that logic for that one person's statement, where do we get "commonly"? and "surgeries?" Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:05, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Seems to be a lot of sourcing on this e.g.[2] I guess they want to sell what they can (which doesn't include surgery), while also being dishonest about it (we don't oppose surgery!). Why not strengthen the sourcing if you feel the point isn't made well enough? Bon courage (talk) 18:10, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

We could also tweak the wording of the sentence, instead of completely removing it. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:16, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

That's a Consumer Reports owned contributed piece with no named author, so not sure how reliable. I can't imagine finding a reliable source for this since it seems like a somewhat exceptional claim that would need something more than a consumer reports PR piece. They commonly recommend against surgery when? In what cases would they tell a patient or the public to not get surgery? Maybe I'm completely wrong. And as Tryptofish suggested, I'd be fine rewording it somehow. Like, they "commonly prefer alternative treatments to conventional medicine, in general, including resistance to surgery and vaccines depending on the patient's needs or the practitioner's opinions." Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:27, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Alternatively: they "commonly encourage alternative treatments that are rejected by conventional medicine, including resistance to surgery or vaccines for some patients." --Tryptofish (talk) 19:34, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@Tryptofish I think this is great, for what it's worth. It'd be nice to have better sources, but this wording seems much more accurate to me. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:40, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Does anyone have any objections to going ahead with that wording? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:03, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

No. —Alalch E. 21:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

This seems more encyclopedic in tone, and is better supported by the sources. I say go for this. >> boodyb ^talk 17:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

It's already been implemented, but I guess nobody said so here. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

The straining at the least to whitewash the page in the face of the sourcing is puzzling. The WaPo source is fine. Nothing exceptional about quacks quacking. Bon courage (talk) 19:39, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2023

Add links to give a mire balanced overview. https://www.webmd.com/balance/what-is-naturopathic-medicine 105.209.150.182 (talk) 06:24, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 08:09, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Restructuring the lead

I visited this article to gain further knowledge on the subject as a layperson. However within 2 seconds into the article I sensed an acute force deterring me from proceeding. I attribute such experience to the blend of descriptive and judgemental statements upon inspection.

In the leading section the first paragraph already imposes the subject a generally dissuading tone. With the pejorative word "pseudoscientific" being the first blow, the next two ambivalent statements (Difficult to generalize...; The ideology...) are then followed by a negative judgement (The ethics...) culminating with the even scathing "quackery".

I acknowledge my limit as a layperson and I have no intention in altering the wording but I do recommend a restructuring. It would be optimal if the descriptive and judgemental statements be separated into discrete paragraphs with the former preceding the latter. Inserting judgemental statements early on can be perceived as shoving in opinions and, as worded in an earlier discussion, setting an agenda. I cite the French version article as a good example for reference. Seanetienne (talk) 16:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Seanetienne, we do have an agenda already set, see WP:PSCI and WP:LUNATICS. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

And that's utter disrespect from you, Mr @Tgeorgescu. It is a consuming job to ward off conspiracy theorists and anti-science groups alike. However this time you have clamped down on the wrong person. I have no particular interest in alternative medicine and my attitude is ambivalent.

I have seen elegant treatment of problematic subjects and I regret that the equivalent cannot by be applied here. By your passive-aggressive wording labelling me a "lunatic charlatan" and cherry-picking my word choice it is apparent that you are already blinded by deep prejudice.

I hereby reject all your insinuation of all sorts. I shall not be commenting until someone tries to understand first instead of dismissing right away. I have done my fair share of input as an minor editor. Seanetienne (talk) 18:06, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Seanetienne, I have never called you a lunatic charlatan. I made previously no reference to your own person. Unless you are actively an author of medical pseudoscience, you have no reason to feel offended by the words of Jimmy Wales. I never said that the words "lunatic charlatans" apply to you, nor did I say I am Wales. It is difficult for me to comprehend why do you think that the essay WP:LUNATICS applies to your own person. Wales's opinion is Wales's opinion. You seem to take it personally when either it isn't me who wrote the opinion (I'm not Wales), or I am simply not writing anything at all about your own person. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:13, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry this got off-topic from the intention of the opening post, but it's probably not a good idea to link to the "lunatics" essay in these kinds of discussions. WP:PSCI (as well as WP:MEDRS) are probably better choices. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Recent edits

I think the recent major rewrite of the page, [3], may have seriously introduced a false balance and may not have consensus. For the moment, I won't revert it myself, but I think it may have to be reverted if other editors besides me object. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:19, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I object as well, but the content seems to have already been reverted. Perhaps the editor will come here to seek consensus? JoJo Anthrax (talk) 06:20, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

With three of us objecting, I'm happy with the revert, for now. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:41, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I was the one editor that made recent changes. To be clear, I am not a paid editor and I don't have a strong bias on this topic. In fact, I am generally skeptical of alternative medicine though have recently become more curious about it as I personally explore some health issues. I was very surprised when I found both this page and the functional medicine page on Wikipedia to be so completely lacking in neutrality on the topics. In no way did I attempt to hide or minimize the many criticisms of naturopathy, but it seems plainly obvious to me the article in its current format really does not follow Wikipedia guidelines. I spent some real time researching legitimate sources that could help provide a more balanced. My goal in doing so was to help the article be more in line with the pillar "Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view."

This pillar states: We strive for articles with an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence. We avoid advocacy, and we characterize information and issues rather than debate them. In some areas there may be just one well-recognized point of view; in others, we describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately and in context rather than as "the truth" or "the best view"

The editor who reverted my edits seems to think that this topic has just one well-recognized point of view, or that that the view that naturopathy is only "quackery" has such prominence any disagreement with this violates the principle of due weight. This is not backed up by credible claims but rather seems like the editor has an axe to grind on this topic. This also seems to be contradicted by the fact that many US states and other nations offer formal license and regulatory frameworks for traditional medicines, which I also cited by linking to a list of states that currently license. It had previously read that "Naturopathy is prohibited in three U.S. states (Florida, South Carolina, and Tennessee) and tightly regulated in many others. Some states have lax regulations, however, and may allow naturopaths to perform minor surgery or even prescribe drugs." This is not neutral, not does it give any credence to the legitimacy that a regulatory system confers.

In introducing a more balanced tone I was careful to cite from legitimate, mainstream and credible sources such as a report published by the World Health Organization (WHO). Indeed, in this report, the WHO Director-General writes that "Traditional and complementary medicine (T&CM) is an important and often underestimated health resource with many applications." In flatly rejecting this, the editor completely ignores whole huge segments of the global population who very much do rely on traditional medicines. Implying that there is consensus that it is "quackery" seems to be a very western centric point of view.

I am going to revert back to the changes I made because I stand by them and believe that I was meticulous in my observance of rules and made a good faith effort to improve the article. Wikiwriter43103840 (talk) 12:37, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I am going to revert back to the changes I made You shouldn't. There are three editors objecting to the changes so there is no WP:consensus for them. Wait and see how the discussion develops. Robby.is.on (talk) 12:41, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

It was problematic from a whitewashing/WP:GEVAL perspective. So not a good idea. Bon courage (talk) 12:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I think we're now at five editors objecting to the change, and one supporting it, so this is WP:1AM. Also, believing that one is "right" is not an accepted reason to edit against WP:CONSENSUS. And I want to explain that the WP:NPOV policy does not say that we have to give similar prominence to every POV, and thus editors here are not claiming that the "quackery" perspective in the only recognized POV. We're saying that we should give WP:DUE weight according to the preponderance of reliable (in this case, WP:MEDRS) sources.

I'm open to the possibility that we should include some increased coverage of favorable perspectives, but I would want to be able to examine them one-by-one. I'm perfectly willing to discuss making some changes, here in talk, as opposed to just putting the changes en masse on the page without prior consensus. Wikiwriter, if you'd like to list here the changes that you think are most likely to gain consensus, with sourcing, I'd be happy to discuss them. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:18, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

"ignores whole huge segments of the global population who very much do rely on traditional medicines"—yup, the rely on such medicines because effective medicine is very expensive and many countries would go bankrupt through making it widely available to their population. Sad, but true. And it does not stop 99% of the traditional medicines from being quackery. E.g. the Cambodian government recognized that cupping therapy is WP:CB, but also that it is widely used in their country. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

There are reasons for relying on tried and true medicine over generations, especially if cost is a factor, when we know that iatrogenic disease is one of the leading causes of illness. This is especially the case in the USA [4]https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4923397/

[5]https://journals.lww.com/journalpatientsafety/Fulltext/2013/09000/A_New,_Evidence_based_Estimate_of_Patient_Harms.2.aspx EDA2Z (talk) 20:36, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, mainstream medicine can be misused. But that only proves it is very powerful. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Echoing the comments of Tryptofish I suggest, Wikiwriter43103840, that you present your desired content on this Talk page, one item at a time, so that it can be discussed amongst interested editors and a consensus - one way or another - achieved. Throwing everything into the article at once is simply not going to work. I note also that you should restrict your comments to content, and not on your opinion(s) of other editors, as your comment above (seems like the editor has an axe to grind on this topic) is unhelpful and could easily be interpreted as a personal attack (see WP:PA). JoJo Anthrax (talk) 20:12, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Agree. Wikiwriter43103840 would be best off working on this talk page making edit requests or something similar, identifying all changes in POV and the references that support such changes. --Hipal (talk) 20:40, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

OK, apologies for just reverting without further discussion.

Here are the changes that I made and why I made them:

1. The current opening reads as follows: " A wide array of pseudoscientific practices branded as "natural", "non-invasive", or promoting "self-healing" are employed by its practitioners, who are known as naturopaths. Difficult to generalize, these treatments range from the thoroughly discredited, like homeopathy, to the widely accepted, like certain forms of psychotherapy." Not only is this non-neutral, but it also is self contradictory. How can it be both "a wide array of pseudoscientific practices" and also include "widely accepted" treatments? I suggested opening with a description that acknowledges the debates about it but does not immediately draw a conclusion. I included reference to the WHO report to back up my suggestion that a more positive POV deserves prominence alongside what is already there.
2. The claim that "The diagnoses made by naturopaths often have no factual merit" is not supported by the citations provided. The citations could be good sources to legitimize a claim that naturopathy does not rely on the scientific method, or even that what it advises is often not supported by medical research, but to flatly claim that the diagnoses often have no factual merit seems to misrepresent the citations, unless I am missing something.
3. The following is also problematic: "Naturopathy is prohibited in three U.S. states (Florida, South Carolina, and Tennessee) and tightly regulated in many others. Some states have lax regulations, however, and may allow naturopaths to perform minor surgery or even prescribe drugs." Why not just acknowledge that some states permit it and regulate it while others prohibit it? It does not seem like the purpose of this article to pass judgement ("lax") on public policy relating to the topic, the role of the article should be to describe public policy from a neutral perspective, and then describe various lobbying efforts focused on changing policies.

The language I replaced it with attempts to explain that naturopathy is not one single approach or way of doing things. It includes fully licensed medical doctors who are also trained in naturopathy and use it as a form of complimentary medicine to totally dangerous anti-vax crazy people who are peddling things that could hurt people. I tried to encompass all of that, and to explain that it is debated. In my mind this was expanding on what is already here. What do you all think? Wikiwriter43103840 (talk) 21:20, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

NPOV isn't half-way between science and pseudoscience. NPOV sides with science and shuns pseudoscience. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think a Wikipedia article is about “siding” at all. It’s about explaining the world as it is. The purpose is not to stake out a position. I’m not sure why you seem to have it out for me. Wikiwriter43103840 (talk) 00:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

You have the mistaken idea that NPOV sides with science and shuns pseudoscience is open for rational debate, and that you would be allowed to disobey it. No, it is a matter of website policy, namely WP:PSCI, you might want to read it.

Wikipedia has no unfettered access to the world as it is. But it has unfettered access to scientific publications. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:59, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

You are unkind. Wikiwriter43103840 (talk) 02:15, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

What I am saying is that Wikipedia has WP:RULES, so our WP:RULES are not open to rational counter-argumentation, at least not at this talk page. This is not the place for changing the WP:RULES. Editors at this talk page cannot change the rules of the game. Not being aware that Wikipedia sides with mainstream science is extremely naive. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:15, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

One last time, @Wikiwriter43103840: per WP:PA, please restrict your comments here to article content, not on your opinions about other editors. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 06:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I feel the need to say, also, that tgeorgescu should be more willing to engage collegially with suggestions by Wikiwriter, who I feel had a somewhat valid reason for feeling treated unkindly. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

The few past days, I did not really engage with their positive claims, but I was sensing that they do not understand how Wikipedia works. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this post. My recollection of the edit was that more was changed than what those three points refer to, and what you've posted is more of a rationale than a proposal for revised text. But I'm happy to work with it for now, focusing on more limited corrections if any are needed.

1. I could support rewriting those sentences to "A wide array of practices branded as "natural", "non-invasive", or promoting "self-healing" are employed by its practitioners, who are known as naturopaths. Difficult to generalize, these treatments range from the pseudoscientific and thoroughly discredited, like homeopathy, to the widely accepted, like certain forms of psychotherapy." I could also support "A wide array of often pseudoscientific practices branded as "natural", "non-invasive", or promoting "self-healing" are employed by its practitioners, who are known as naturopaths. Difficult to generalize, these treatments range from the thoroughly discredited, like homeopathy, to the widely accepted, like certain forms of psychotherapy." The second of those simply introduces the word "often" before the word "pseudoscientific".
2. I could support rewriting that sentence to "The diagnoses made by naturopaths often have no basis in science and are often not accepted by mainstream medicine".
3. I could support rewriting the second sentence to "Some states, however, allow naturopaths to perform minor surgery or even prescribe drugs."

I'm very pro-science, but I can agree that there is some editorializing in the current versions of those three passages, and I'd be willing to go that far if other editors agree. I don't think any of the changes I described really shift the POV significantly, but they make the language more encyclopedic and professional. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I think this a good start. I need to spend more time on this and when I can I will be glad to propose further changes here in this discussion. Thanks for this. Wikiwriter43103840 (talk) 00:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the suggestions of Tryptofish, I like the first sentence of point 1, and the sentences in points 2 and 3. They are accurate and, importantly, carry an encyclopedic tone. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 06:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Naturopathy, or naturopathic medicine, encompasses a variety of treatment methods, including dietary and lifestyle changes, stress reduction, the use of herbs and dietary supplements, homeopathy, manipulative therapies, exercise therapy, practitioner-guided detoxification, and psychotherapy and counseling. Naturopathy often finds itself at the center of debate because its practices frequently lack a rigorous scientific basis.

Many in the scientific and medical communities categorize it as an alternative medicine form, emphasizing the pseudoscientific nature of some of its methods, such as homeopathy, which are widely discredited. Despite these challenges to its validity, naturopathy is also recognized by some, including the World Health Organization (WHO), which advocates for an integrative approach that combines the best of traditional and conventional medical systems.

The field of naturopathy employs a diverse array of practices, described by practitioners as "natural," "non-invasive," or promoting "self-healing." This diversity ranges from methods without scientific support to those accepted within some regions of mainstream medicine, like specific forms of psychotherapy. The spectrum of practices complicates the generalization of naturopathic medicine's efficacy and scientific standing.

The basis of naturopathy includes various sources, from accredited educational programs to traditions rooted in vitalism and folk medicine. Its controversial nature stems not only from the debate over its scientific validity but also from differing regulatory landscapes across the globe. For example, the practice faces outright prohibition in a few states in the United States. In contrast, others offer licensure or registration that may permit a range of activities, including minor surgery and prescribing medications. Wikiwriter43103840 (talk) 11:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry my intro got cut off. Here is my attempt at a re-write. Thoughts? Wikiwriter43103840 (talk) 11:46, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I prefer the revised sentences presented above by Tryptofish. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 12:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Tryptofish's rewrite takes on a more encyclopedic tone. @Wikiwriter43103840, you have done a lot of rewriting which may necessitate new source requirements, and a bit too wordy for these purposes, IMO. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 16:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I've enacted those edits: [6]. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, some of the current sources would suffice and others would take some digging to be exact (I have them in mind but would want to find specific page numbers, etc). Before I did that work I wanted to bring this draft to this group. Could you help me understand what is not encyclopedic about my re-write? Is there anything that in there that others think would be additive to the current article, even without using the entirety of it? Wikiwriter43103840 (talk) 14:06, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

You're writing is fine, in my opinion. I just meant that your style was a little wordier, for example, Naturopathy often finds itself at the center of debate because its practices frequently lack a rigorous scientific basis. Your thoughts were heard and considered, and these types of articles are difficult spaces, as they tend to draw editors who have strong opinions/feelings about how the subject is presented, so no reason to be discouraged. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 14:50, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I provided an answer to your question on your Talk page, as doing so here might be inconsistent with article Talk page guidelines. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 16:32, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I read JoJo's reply on your talk page, and I think it's a very reasonable explanation.

I'll try to add some further explanation to the comments already made. The first thought I have when reading your suggested text is to ask myself: why would we need these changes? You can see from the changes that I recently enacted on the page, that I approached it as trying to fix things where I believed there was a valid reason to fix it. A lot of what you propose here moves content around, but I'm not seeing what problem it solves.

For those things where I do see the reason why, I'm having the same reaction as Pyrrho and JoJo. The sentence that Pyrrho quotes just above strikes me as a little bit WP:PEACOCK, because "center of debate" comes across a little like "center of attention", and I think that's hyperbole. The paragraph that begins "Many in the scientific... " is where I particularly see a false balance of POV. First, "many" is an understatement. Second, by saying that they "emphasize" the negative aspects, it comes across as implying a little bit that there is a choice happening to emphasize those things while ignoring more positive things, which isn't supported by most sources. Third, when you say: "Despite these challenges... ", you make it sound like we would be saying, in Wikipedia's voice, that the "truth" would be breaking through. Although I'm not opposed to giving some additional weight to the WHO position (somewhere on the page, not sure about the lead), I wouldn't want to give it equal WP:WEIGHT with the more critical views. After all, after the recent corrections, we already do make it clear that there are things like some types of psychotherapy that are accepted as mainstream. None of what I've just described is really bad, more like just not enough of an improvement on what we have now. And in subtle ways, it seems to me like POV-pushing, because the changes in tone and emphasis trend in one direction. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:52, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2024

Change "Difficult to generalize, these treatments range from the pseudoscientific and thoroughly discredited, like homeopathy, to the widely accepted, like certain forms of psychotherapy." to a more accurate and respectful way to describe Naturopathic Medicine. That is to refer to it as "A holistic, evidence-informed approach to healthcare. It emphasizes the body’s innate ability to heal itself, focusing on natural therapies such as nutrition, lifestyle modification, herbal medicine, physical medicine, and, where applicable, modern medical diagnostics and interventions. Licensed Naturopathic Doctors (Licensed NDs, NMDs) are trained in both conventional medical sciences and natural therapies, allowing them to blend modern diagnostic tools with a broad range of natural treatments to support whole-person health." EDA2Z (talk) 17:29, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Not done. The requested content is flowery WP:SOAP, and is inconsistent with the independent, reliable, secondary sources. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 18:01, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

As a leading paragraph, the language around this profession must be in line with the integrative form of medicine it is. It is preventative and functional at the core. It is not pseudoscientific at the core, but rather some of the schools are connected with top research centers. For example the Sonoran University's Plant Medicine Research Center (https://www.sonoran.edu/research/ric-scalzo-institute/) connected with Biology Research centers at Arizona State University and other institutions. Here are some of the research projects at this institute alone https://www.sonoran.edu/research/projects/. Therefore, my question is what would be recommended here to incorporate a more accurate introductory paragraph? Also, why isn't this page being monitored and corrected by the professional Naturopathic Medical association, rather than those who are not connected with this profession?

Here is another possible change from the national professional association (https://naturopathic.org/page/AboutNaturopathicMedicine):

"The past 30 years has seen an extraordinary increase in consumer demand for safe, effective, and cost-effective natural health care. Naturopathic medicine has emerged as the health-care profession best suited to meet this demand, with naturopathic doctors trained in the art and science of both natural and conventional medicine. Naturopathic medicine is recognized as one of the original systems of medicine offering safe, effective patient-centered care that is a vital part of healthcare in the twenty-first century." EDA2Z (talk) 20:04, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Pharmacognosy research about plants is important, but generally it's not what naturopathy does.

Also, Wikipedia isn't a PR venue, see WP:SOAPBOXING. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Understood about soapboxing. However, the difference between Naturopathic Medicine from licensed professionals, is not the same as the overarching term "Naturopathy", and it is not pseudoscience. If the term Naturopathic Medicine is included on this page, then the lead paragraph is slandering the profession and not allowing correction to be made. The same can be said for the Alternative Medicine page. The word "pseudo-science" written in the lead paragraph will persuade people in a very clear direction, rather than providing facts around what these forms of health care are actually about. EDA2Z (talk) 21:02, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Our official stance: WP:LUNATICS. In other words: Wikipedia is biased for mainstream science and the medical orthodoxy.

And the truth is that naturopathy is to a large extent obsolete due to huge progress in mainstream medicine. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:14, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

The modalities used by Licensed Naturopathic Doctors, and other Integrative Doctors, including Allopathic Doctors who have integrated with those modalities, are proven to be no where near obsolete. They, in fact, are continuing to increase in use each year as the general population of multiple countries have found that it is better to approach a healthy lifestyle before needing a doctor. It has been a bonus for these people newly entering the world of Integrative and Naturopathic medicine, when they find out that their illnesses can also be treated in this way. "Traditional, complementary and alternative medicine (TCAM) includes products (e.g. herbal medicines, dietary supplements) and therapies/practices (e.g. chiropractic, acupuncture), and is a popular healthcare choice for many people. This study systematically reviewed national surveys of TCAM use around the world. We identified studies carried out in 14 different countries and one continent (Europe) on the extent of use of TCAM in the general population. TCAM use was found to be substantial, ranging from 24 to 71.3%" [7]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35788539/

[8]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36103571/

It's even increasing in veterinary medicine [9]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34157762/ EDA2Z (talk) 20:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Chiropractic? Means how to get cervical arterial dissection.

Acupuncture? Means how to get infected or perforated lungs.

Just because naturopathy is broadly used, it does not mean it isn't quackery.

And frankly, I had a dislocated shoulder, very painful. Basically, I had to choose between ingesting opiates and no treatment. I decided that no treatment was the better option. That's why sometimes naturopathy is the preferred treatment: since no treatment is the preferred treatment option. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:12, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

So, in that respect Reiki or chamomile tea are in fact substitutes for no treatment. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Amazing facts about hemaeopathy Allopathy naturopathy

Amazing 117.96.36.163 (talk) 12:34, 16 November 2024 (UTC)